Snow and Fox during Ajax and Swan's talk in the graveyard --

emissary · Post by **emissary** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:01 pm

Was Ajax correct when he suggested that Swan might not be able to find the subway? I am referring to when Mercy says, "now if you still want to get to Union Square I can show you where to find the train"

StevenFallonNYC · Post by **StevenFallonNYC** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:25 pm

I think Ajax was just being a wisearse to Swan about finding the subway. They may never have been to the Bronx before (as Swan said), but out of the eight guys, one had to remember how to get back to the station they actually came in on, which would probably be The Fox's job.

So who knows, maybe Ajax's crack was actually a little swipe at Fox too, like "I bet you and your boy can't even find the subway," especially seeing how Fox went right to Swan's side during the discussion.

- Steven

emissary · Post by **emissary** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:00 am

hmm...I wonder what would happen if they all took sides.

StevenFallonNYC · Post by **StevenFallonNYC** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:11 pm

But the others did back up Swan in the graveyard, Vermin, Cochise and Cowboy all spoke up for Swan. I think when Swan asked where was Fox, and Mercy said the cops must have grabbed him, I don't think Swan was uncaring, it was just that they were still in a dangerous night and he had to attend to business. He probably felt the Fox was grabbed by the cops, so at least he;d be accounted for (unfortunately that was wrong).

I do agree with the theories of Swan making Rembrandt check out for the subway instead of Fox, to get Rembrandt out of possible funny business, with the first discussion within The Warriors without Cleon around. I hadn't looked at it that way and that sounds right to me.

- Steven

emissary · Post by **emissary** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:14 pm

I think at one point, Swan felt guilty about Ajax ultimate fate.

Post by **The Fox** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:43 am

emissary wrote:Oh I know they back up Swan. That is one of my favorite parts. I was talking about Fox. I'm saying that Fox went near Swan for his own protection. And ok if Swan wasn't uncaring he was certainly less caring, than in the Ajax scene. "I should have made him come with us"

emissary, I can't take anything you discuss about Fox as proper debate because you just hate the guy,

Now he is my fave person in the film but, your obvious dislike of him makes you look for things to be negative about him.

In previous posts I agree that Swan was better going with Mercy and in this instance in the film I think The Fox was ready to protect the gang by fighting Ajax even though he would have lost. I also think Snow is ready to help take Ajax down if given the nod by Swan.

I also think when Swan asks about the fox the actor had just left the set and Walter Hill was probably angry so just, got the Character out of the script as soon as possible.

I reckon at least 20% of your posts are having a dig at the character so just think of something new to say.

I'm not starting but, I?m just bored of it.

Peace.

The Fox.

StevenFallonNYC · Post by **StevenFallonNYC** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:34 am

emissary wrote:Oh I know they back up Swan. That is one of my favorite parts. I was talking about Fox. I'm saying that Fox went near Swan for his own protection. And ok if Swan wasn't uncaring he was certainly less caring, than in the Ajax scene. "I should have made him come with us"

I can't agree with this at all. I think it's obvious The Fox was supporting Swan fully, and not doing so for his own protection. When he said "Cleon's choice, Swan's Warchief" he means it. And when Swan says "make your move" The Fox is right with him. If The Fox simply wanted to be safe, he would have stayed the heck out of it. The Fox was defending the ways of their gang ("Cleon's choice, Swan's Warchief").

As far as Ajax, Swan said "I should have made him come with us" because Ajax went off the beaten path of what they were supposed to be doing. As Warchief, it's no surprise Swan felt a little responsible, he's the leader. And with a powerful Warrior like Ajax, Swan was probably right, he SHOULD have made Ajax come along. But with The Fox, Fox fought with that cop in the middle of the night's action of the Warriors trying to get home. He was an unfortunate victim of the night's circumstances. When Swan eventually learned about Fox's death off-camera obviously, I believe he'd take it pretty darn hard.

- Steven

Post by **GonzoNYC** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:58 pm

I agree Steve. Another thing about that is Swan could have changed Ajax's situation because he was there. Swan as leader had a chance to demand Ajax forget the girl. Fox and Mercy had already seperated from the gang. Swan, not being there, had no control over that situation. I would think he feels a little guilty with Ajax...by not reining in Ajax he is somewhat resposible for the arrest. This could explain his reaction to the Ajax news.

Post by **SoldierHeavyMuscle** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:13 pm

The Fox wrote:
emissary wrote:Oh I know they back up Swan. That is one of my favorite parts. I was talking about Fox. I'm saying that Fox went near Swan for his own protection. And ok if Swan wasn't uncaring he was certainly less caring, than in the Ajax scene. "I should have made him come with us"
emissary, I can't take anything you discuss about Fox as proper debate because you just hate the guy,

Now he is my fave person in the film but, your obvious dislike of him makes you look for things to be negative about him.

In previous posts I agree that Swan was better going with Mercy and in this instance in the film I think The Fox was ready to protect the gang by fighting Ajax even though he would have lost. I also think Snow is ready to help take Ajax down if given the nod by Swan.

I also think when Swan asks about the fox the actor had just left the set and Walter Hill was probably angry so just, got the Character out of the script as soon as possible.

I reckon at least 20% of your posts are having a dig at the character so just think of something new to say.

I'm not starting but, I?m just bored of it.

Peace.

The Fox.

YAYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! =D> =D> \:D/
a little too polite, but effective none the less!!

Ranchgal · Post by **Ranchgal** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:53 pm

GonzoNYC wrote:I agree Steve. Another thing about that is Swan could have changed Ajax's situation because he was there. Swan as leader had a chance to demand Ajax forget the girl. Fox and Mercy had already seperated from the gang. Swan, not being there, had no control over that situation. I would think he feels a little guilty with Ajax...by not reining in Ajax he is somewhat resposible for the arrest. This could explain his reaction to the Ajax news.

I am not so sure about your last point---lets face it---orders only go as far as the people who will follow them.
Was Ajax worth having a fight about in the park, when they had the others to find and regroup??
As leader, yes, he could have, and did say--We ain't got time for this!
ANd the others chimed in and said the same thing---AJAX was neither swayed or detered---was it worth the physical confrontation it would have taken, and energy it would have expended to get him beaten down to come along---I don't think so---ulimately the choice and personal responsibilty was Ajax's alone---HE wasn't going to leave the woman, he wasn't going to go with them without them fighting him and dragging him along.

He let the confrontation go in graveyard because it was obvious that NONE of the rest of them were going to follow him, even if he did beat down Swan, (which I am NOT so sure of myself) this confrontation was different--and he wasn't going to give in and go along, and he really did NOT want the others with him---if they were, okay, but he didn't ask them to stay.
So I don't think Swan was either responsible or in actuality could have ordered Ajax to come---cause Ajax would not have listened to him.
Free choice, free country, personal responsibility---Leaders can only lead if the followers follow---if they don't, it is every man for himself.

Post by **GonzoNYC** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:32 pm

Hi Ranchgal. I am not saying he was responsible. What I think though is that Swan felt responsible. Like he could have done something. That's why he says " I should have made him come with us." in the arcade. Whether he could have is open for debate. I agree with you that he probably couldn't have swayed Ajax away. I am only saying as leader he thinks he was responsible since he was there. He was not with Fox so he doesn't feel quite so responsible for him.

Ranchgal · Post by **Ranchgal** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:13 pm

Yes Gonzo, sorry, I think I just mistook the reading of your post--your second one clears up what you meant, for me. I know he sort of felt responsible, but Cowboy was right---there was nothing any of them could have done to change it.
Have been having so much fun lately, much to discuss!! Hard not to get adamant about what one thinks sometimes!

emissary · Post by **emissary** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:45 am

8-[ I think Swan knew that everything would be fine if they made it to 96th street.

StevenFallonNYC · Post by **StevenFallonNYC** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:15 am

That is a good point about Swan Gonz, and that's one reason (of a few) why I feel that deleted scene outside the bathroom before the Punks' fight is the most important one left out. Among other things, it did show that Swan felt he was responsible, probably because he never came right out and said to Ajax, "NO. you are coming with us, we have a job to do."

Something personal took over in the park when Ajax left it seemed, as possibly indicated by Swan saying "you never were very smart." That means Swan has seen this behavior by Ajax at least a few times before - whether or not if directly affected any important outcome, we'll never know.

And all the guys semeed to know Ajax well enough - heck even Vermin said "I bet he went out swinging" knowing Ajax probably did just that. Maybe it was inexperience with being Warchief, but yeah I think Swan feels he should have been harder. Ajax surely would not have listened with some wool around, but then at least Swan knows he gave a direct order. As Ranchgal said, personal responsibility.

They REALLY should have left that one deleted scene in!

Ranchgal · Post by **Ranchgal** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:17 am

Good point about the importance of the deleted scene, I have watched it over and over, and never really put together how much it colors how you view the inner workings between them. But now that I have read it, it really does come clear about what a mistake they made cutting it out.